Is it possible to learn what clan a woman is from by having her role number?
Comments
jsmithsays
Roll numbers just identify the Final Roll number assigned to an individual. But, each enrolled member will be associated with an application, which has an assigned card number. These files often have family information, but clan affiliation was not usually recorded. So, it can sometimes be identified with additional digging. If the female line was identified and you might be able to find other source records confirming clan affiliation. But, sometimes this information was lost, or clan affiliation was more remote. However, it is a matter of establishing a clear tree with maternal lines going back to identified Cherokee clans.
One other scenario might come into play. If you have a family unit where a Cherokee male married a White female (enumerate as IW, for “intermarried White”) it would confirm that there is no clan affiliation. If you post specifics about these individuals, you might get better feedback. For example, it is hard to narrow anything down based on surname tags in the queries. There were only four females enumerated with the name Matthews, from two different family units. The first family was an Addie, 1/8 blood, with daughters Mary and Jessie at 1/16 degree. The second unit included a girl named Madeline, who was 1/4 degree, and age 5 about 1900. There was one other female listed with the Mathews spelling, and she is found on the Minors By Blood roll. However, there are about 30 with the surname Hill.
Thank you so much for your information, I know my data isn’t complete, grandmother was born in Illnois in 1827 and was adopted on The Trail of Tears by a white couple last name Woolridge, her name was Mary Elizabeth Matthews and later married a Hill which is where my grandfathers come from. I am at a standstill as to where to look for her birth parents so I was courious as to possible clans, thank you for your reply I will keep digging.
In this case, there would be no way to find out anything related to Cherokee clans, or her lineage, if she was adopted and this information was not passed along or documented. Also, she was born in the wrong place and time to be a Cherokee found on the Trial of Tears. The Matthews were in Morgan IL at the time of her birth, and they show up on the 1830 Census in Morgan County, IL. She also did not have a Cherokee roll number, so it s a bit unclear what you are referring to in the original query. There was a Sarah Hill that put in an application for Eastern Cherokee claims (Guion Miller), but she was a different person, and was rejected anyway.
The Trail of Tears was a specific event that occurred from 1838-9. Some people start the timeline in 1836, with the ratification of the Treaty of New Echota, when some Cherokees started moving west (to Arkansas and Indian Territory) voluntarily or in their own organized companies. There is almost no way that a Cherokee girl, and an orphan no less, would be found in that location at that time period. What is more likely is that she was from another tribe (if she was Native), or she may have been of mixed African-White ancestry, of light enough complexion, that she could “pass.” In other words, her true parentage could have been obscured and people claimed she was “Indian” as a sort of cover story. This was dramatically more common than some people realize, yet, it is almost never claimed as such for complex social reasons.
You may wan to focus on tracing all direct female, lineal descendants and see if you can find some contemporary living cousins that inherited her mtDNA. If you are lucky, and you find some and are able to convince them to to take a test, this will at least clarify the Native claims. If she was Native, modern descendants would inherit either A,B,C,D or X haplogroups. If it shows up as non-Native, you’d know the story is not accurate, or needs to be revised drastically. In adoption scenarios, particularly of distant ancestors, this new DNA technology may be one of the few options left to explore.
You have been very helpfull to me I appreciate you taking the time to help in my search. I am using ancestry.com and the Mary Mathews shows up on the Dawes as number 3038 under the names of Mary Mathews, Elizth Mathews, and Mary Hill she is listed as a Cherokee freedman. didn’t know there was such a thing and thought she was a freed slave, but her pic in the book An Oklahoma Hill written by her great grandson she isn’t mixed black.and she taught him to speak Cherokee, but he couldn’t write it so no words show up in the book On her Find a Grave Memorial someone wrote down she was adopted on the Trail of tears I will try to contact that person to see where she got the info. I wasn’t that interested in roll numbers, I just knew different clans had different functions and my lakota friends can’t help me with that type of info and I don’t know any Cherokees raised in their culture, so your suggestions are very valueable to me
This is the same info I’ve found, some of which has been from things you’ve posted on ancestry.com. if she is the Cherokee ancestor in my family, it would validate what has been passed down to us about our Cherokee blood. I am searching for answers as you are. And I would really love to see this book An Oklahoma Hill.
The Mary Mathews, born in 1827 in IL who married Richard Henry Hill, would not have been able to speak Cherokee, as she didn’t grow up in a Cherokee family or have a connection with a Cherokee community. She did not submit a Dawes or Guion Miller application.
The people and numbers that are being referenced here are different than this 1827 Illinois-born Mary Mathews.
For example, Dawes card number 3038 is assigned to the following:
Lucy G. Swaggerty (By Blood)
Roy L. Adams (Minor By Blood)
**No FREEDMEN card number goes into the 3000s range.
Cherokee Dawes roll numbers for 3038:
By Blood: Mary Taylor, 1/8 blood, age 8 during enumeration
By Blood, Minor: Jensey Hooper, full, 1 during enumeration
Cherokee Freedmen: Mary Hill, 41 (card 215) – she was the daughter of Ben and Eliza Grimmet, and married a Bud Hill. Mary was born and lived her entire life in Cherokee Nation/Oklahoma. She was born in the early 1860s and was a slave in her first few years of life. Her owner’s name was Blair.
Also, you can simple review the final rolls for all Mathews/Matthews:
There is no book listed in Amazon database by the name “An Oklahoma Hill” nor does it pull up with a specified Google search. So, I’m not sure what source you are referencing. But, it seems you may be pulling from disparate places and latching onto different people with similar names, and disregarding ages and locations and records that place them in their own times and places, with their own lineages and specific histories.
This 1827 Illinois-born Mary Mathews, who married a Richard Hill in Taney County, MO in the 1840s, can be traced in records and these reflect here movements and the communities in which she lived. Her parents are found in Morgan County, IL, in 1830 and 1840. Whether she was orphaned or not would still need to be verified. But, she was raised in this White family in IL. She is then found as a young wife and mother in Clay County, MO in 1850; Barry in 1860; Christian in 1870; back to Barry from 1880 – 1900. Then in 1910 she was enumerated twice, once living in Cherokee County in 1910 (listed as “aunt”) and another time she is found living in her daughters household, in Muscogee County. However, these families were found on the White census schedules and not in tribal records…which was a very pivotal time period (during Allotment era and final enumeration). Also, this time period represents White settlement into Oklahoma. Indians were a tiny minority in this location during the late 1800s and the turn of the 20th century. So, simply showing up in that area in the early 1900s does not indicate Native American connection. In fact, by the records trail and the timeline, it is actually easier to establish that there was no tribal affiliation. By 1920, she was back in Christian, MO, living with her son.
Again, this women is not found in any tribal records. So, any source or claim saying otherwise is incorrect. If she was adopted and raised by White parents and grew up or lived in IL and MO, she could not possibly speak Cherokee. If her parentage is not known, then clan affiliation cannot be established. Also, to reiterate, she was born in the wrong time and place to be an orphan from the Trail of Tears.
Just one thing to note – according to the stories that say she was adopted, she was 12 years old at the time of adoption – so she may have, in fact, learned the Cherokee language as a child. So the written history wicatawi references in An Oklahoma Hill may be correct; although, I would like to know where I can find this book. I tried saving the excerpts that wicatawi posted on my ancestry.com family tree; yet have been unable to find the book online except in France lol. I want to see this book.
Roll numbers just identify the Final Roll number assigned to an individual. But, each enrolled member will be associated with an application, which has an assigned card number. These files often have family information, but clan affiliation was not usually recorded. So, it can sometimes be identified with additional digging. If the female line was identified and you might be able to find other source records confirming clan affiliation. But, sometimes this information was lost, or clan affiliation was more remote. However, it is a matter of establishing a clear tree with maternal lines going back to identified Cherokee clans.
One other scenario might come into play. If you have a family unit where a Cherokee male married a White female (enumerate as IW, for “intermarried White”) it would confirm that there is no clan affiliation. If you post specifics about these individuals, you might get better feedback. For example, it is hard to narrow anything down based on surname tags in the queries. There were only four females enumerated with the name Matthews, from two different family units. The first family was an Addie, 1/8 blood, with daughters Mary and Jessie at 1/16 degree. The second unit included a girl named Madeline, who was 1/4 degree, and age 5 about 1900. There was one other female listed with the Mathews spelling, and she is found on the Minors By Blood roll. However, there are about 30 with the surname Hill.
Thank you so much for your information, I know my data isn’t complete, grandmother was born in Illnois in 1827 and was adopted on The Trail of Tears by a white couple last name Woolridge, her name was Mary Elizabeth Matthews and later married a Hill which is where my grandfathers come from. I am at a standstill as to where to look for her birth parents so I was courious as to possible clans, thank you for your reply I will keep digging.
In this case, there would be no way to find out anything related to Cherokee clans, or her lineage, if she was adopted and this information was not passed along or documented. Also, she was born in the wrong place and time to be a Cherokee found on the Trial of Tears. The Matthews were in Morgan IL at the time of her birth, and they show up on the 1830 Census in Morgan County, IL. She also did not have a Cherokee roll number, so it s a bit unclear what you are referring to in the original query. There was a Sarah Hill that put in an application for Eastern Cherokee claims (Guion Miller), but she was a different person, and was rejected anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_County,_Illinois
The Trail of Tears was a specific event that occurred from 1838-9. Some people start the timeline in 1836, with the ratification of the Treaty of New Echota, when some Cherokees started moving west (to Arkansas and Indian Territory) voluntarily or in their own organized companies. There is almost no way that a Cherokee girl, and an orphan no less, would be found in that location at that time period. What is more likely is that she was from another tribe (if she was Native), or she may have been of mixed African-White ancestry, of light enough complexion, that she could “pass.” In other words, her true parentage could have been obscured and people claimed she was “Indian” as a sort of cover story. This was dramatically more common than some people realize, yet, it is almost never claimed as such for complex social reasons.
You may wan to focus on tracing all direct female, lineal descendants and see if you can find some contemporary living cousins that inherited her mtDNA. If you are lucky, and you find some and are able to convince them to to take a test, this will at least clarify the Native claims. If she was Native, modern descendants would inherit either A,B,C,D or X haplogroups. If it shows up as non-Native, you’d know the story is not accurate, or needs to be revised drastically. In adoption scenarios, particularly of distant ancestors, this new DNA technology may be one of the few options left to explore.
You have been very helpfull to me I appreciate you taking the time to help in my search. I am using ancestry.com and the Mary Mathews shows up on the Dawes as number 3038 under the names of Mary Mathews, Elizth Mathews, and Mary Hill she is listed as a Cherokee freedman. didn’t know there was such a thing and thought she was a freed slave, but her pic in the book An Oklahoma Hill written by her great grandson she isn’t mixed black.and she taught him to speak Cherokee, but he couldn’t write it so no words show up in the book On her Find a Grave Memorial someone wrote down she was adopted on the Trail of tears I will try to contact that person to see where she got the info. I wasn’t that interested in roll numbers, I just knew different clans had different functions and my lakota friends can’t help me with that type of info and I don’t know any Cherokees raised in their culture, so your suggestions are very valueable to me
This is the same info I’ve found, some of which has been from things you’ve posted on ancestry.com. if she is the Cherokee ancestor in my family, it would validate what has been passed down to us about our Cherokee blood. I am searching for answers as you are. And I would really love to see this book An Oklahoma Hill.
The Mary Mathews, born in 1827 in IL who married Richard Henry Hill, would not have been able to speak Cherokee, as she didn’t grow up in a Cherokee family or have a connection with a Cherokee community. She did not submit a Dawes or Guion Miller application.
The people and numbers that are being referenced here are different than this 1827 Illinois-born Mary Mathews.
For example, Dawes card number 3038 is assigned to the following:
Lucy G. Swaggerty (By Blood)
Roy L. Adams (Minor By Blood)
**No FREEDMEN card number goes into the 3000s range.
Cherokee Dawes roll numbers for 3038:
By Blood: Mary Taylor, 1/8 blood, age 8 during enumeration
By Blood, Minor: Jensey Hooper, full, 1 during enumeration
Cherokee Freedmen: Mary Hill, 41 (card 215) – she was the daughter of Ben and Eliza Grimmet, and married a Bud Hill. Mary was born and lived her entire life in Cherokee Nation/Oklahoma. She was born in the early 1860s and was a slave in her first few years of life. Her owner’s name was Blair.
Also, you can simple review the final rolls for all Mathews/Matthews:
Final Roll, By Blood:
https://nara-media-001.s3.amazonaws.com/arcmedia/media/images/35/22/35-2110a.gif
Final Roll, Minors by Blood:
https://nara-media-001.s3.amazonaws.com/arcmedia/media/images/35/23/35-2214a.gif
There is no book listed in Amazon database by the name “An Oklahoma Hill” nor does it pull up with a specified Google search. So, I’m not sure what source you are referencing. But, it seems you may be pulling from disparate places and latching onto different people with similar names, and disregarding ages and locations and records that place them in their own times and places, with their own lineages and specific histories.
This 1827 Illinois-born Mary Mathews, who married a Richard Hill in Taney County, MO in the 1840s, can be traced in records and these reflect here movements and the communities in which she lived. Her parents are found in Morgan County, IL, in 1830 and 1840. Whether she was orphaned or not would still need to be verified. But, she was raised in this White family in IL. She is then found as a young wife and mother in Clay County, MO in 1850; Barry in 1860; Christian in 1870; back to Barry from 1880 – 1900. Then in 1910 she was enumerated twice, once living in Cherokee County in 1910 (listed as “aunt”) and another time she is found living in her daughters household, in Muscogee County. However, these families were found on the White census schedules and not in tribal records…which was a very pivotal time period (during Allotment era and final enumeration). Also, this time period represents White settlement into Oklahoma. Indians were a tiny minority in this location during the late 1800s and the turn of the 20th century. So, simply showing up in that area in the early 1900s does not indicate Native American connection. In fact, by the records trail and the timeline, it is actually easier to establish that there was no tribal affiliation. By 1920, she was back in Christian, MO, living with her son.
Again, this women is not found in any tribal records. So, any source or claim saying otherwise is incorrect. If she was adopted and raised by White parents and grew up or lived in IL and MO, she could not possibly speak Cherokee. If her parentage is not known, then clan affiliation cannot be established. Also, to reiterate, she was born in the wrong time and place to be an orphan from the Trail of Tears.
Thank you for helping me understand.
There are other comments in my email but I can’t seem to approve them to this page, but thank you everyone for your help
Just one thing to note – according to the stories that say she was adopted, she was 12 years old at the time of adoption – so she may have, in fact, learned the Cherokee language as a child. So the written history wicatawi references in An Oklahoma Hill may be correct; although, I would like to know where I can find this book. I tried saving the excerpts that wicatawi posted on my ancestry.com family tree; yet have been unable to find the book online except in France lol. I want to see this book.